SIDE C:
Bob describes that he had always wanted to go to New York, because of Ethel Merman. He first left for New York at age 17,around 1955), stayed at Sloane House which was all men at the time. Mostly members of the navy, with whom Bob recounts sexual encounters. The showers were ‘wild,’ with al…
SIDE C:
Bob describes that he had always wanted to go to New York, because of Ethel Merman. He first left for New York at age 17,around 1955), stayed at Sloane House which was all men at the time. Mostly members of the navy, with whom Bob recounts sexual encounters. The showers were ‘wild,’ with all-male orgies occurring in them. Bob also recalls some floors being more gay than others. “It was much wilder in the showers at the Y than the bathhouses now”. Bob mentions that Black gay men at the time would ask if he was ‘cheerful’ rather than ‘gay’. After meeting Art and being invited to his house, Bob really preferred to live at the Y - Bob says ‘when it came to going to bed with him, I felt repulsed by him’. Bob recalls some of the gay vocabulary, including “Cheerful’ and also ‘Are you of French or Greek culture?” wherein French refers to oral sex, and Greek refers to anal sex. After his mother died in 1958, Bob became closer with his girlfriend and then married her. At the time, gay life just felt like ‘fun’, not something to settle down in. After marrying his wife, he had a daughter a year later and moved out to Scarborough, while working at the Royal York. While living in Scarborough, Bob was cruised by a man and received oral sex. This upset Bob very much, as he ‘had been able to keep away from the gay life for a year…..probably two years without any physical contact from a man.’ Bob met him again, three more times. One of these times, his wife caught him. This caused marital instability and finally a separation. After this marriage, Bob had a second male partner, and lived with him at City Park until this partner cheated on him. Bob attempted to reconnect with his wife, but was unsuccessful. After the second split, he moved to Vancouver, and then back to Montreal (where he lived with his wife and daughter again). Bob took a course to become a psychiatric nurse, and then worked in the adolescent ward at a hospital. Bob considered opening a halfway house, and rented a large house in downtown Montreal, for discharged patients. But then Bob’s friends convinced him to open a house for queer folks. The house ended up becoming full of nurses, who paid Bob rent. Then, downstairs they opened an illegal bar in the basement, which was raided (Bob’s first encounter with the police) around June or July of 1965, after refusing to pay ‘protection fee’s’. They called the bar the Townhouse on Sussex St. A ‘notorious gay lawyer’, Seymour Spector, came to defend them because he attended the bar. A businessman paid off all their bail, and offered to re-open the club, which they eventually declined. The night after the police raided the house, a group of thieves held everyone in the house hostage and stole all their valuables and money. After Montreal, Bob moved to Toronto, and then Banff where he got a job at the YMCA Chalet in Banff.
Dates and locations discussed: Toronto, New York, Banff, Montreal, Vancouver, Scarborough, 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s
SIDE D:
The YMCA Bob worked at in Banff was mostly students, and mostly straight. At that time, Bob was living a very straight life. Bob then worked various jobs, managing a motel and various properties, as well as opening a restaurant and a reservation service. Then, he moved to Calgary with wife and daughter and started working as a tour guide between Calgary and Mexico. Then, in 1975, Bob and his wife broke up again and Bob moved to Puerto Vallarta and ran a guesthouse. After living in Puerto Vallarta for two years, Bob moved back to Toronto in 1977 and began his work on the Hot Tubs. After living in Montreal, Bob moved to Toronto but could not get work as a psychiatric nurse, so took a course on massage and hydrotherapy. Bob advertised in the Toronto star ‘looking for investors in a gay business’ which successful led to financing the baths (both investors were, in fact, straight). Bob toured the baths (including the Richmond, the Oakleaf, the Barracks, the Romans) with these investors to research before opening their own baths. Bob briefly discusses the bad reputation and frequent raids of the International, a bathhouse on Spadina. While opening the Hot Tubs, Bob heard about the raid at the Barracks, but still they opened. The Tubs was the first bath that allowed men and women at the baths (but, everyone would have to wear bathing suits) which attracted many lesbians - but only for one night a week. Bob at times showed films, as well as covered one of the tubs with stage. Bob also kept a pet racoon, named Rocky, at the baths. Bob opened a restaurant, and got a dance floor, and jukeboxes, as well as an orgy room (until the police notified the bath that they had to close the orgy room). Often, many of the young men at the Manatee (which was all ages) would frequent the baths after they left the clubs. Bob began hearing rumours that plainclothes officers were monitoring the club for sex work, and that they were going to get raided. Bob called the police directly, asking them if there are any violations, which the police declined. Then, two days later they were invited to the police’s fundraising ball. Still, the morality police began visiting every couple days. Around the same time, Bob’s long time friend and lawyer, Eddy was bludgeoned to death with an ashtray. The police had been wiretapping and surveilling Bob, who had been working on gay film and picking up young men from the baths. Bob briefly discusses his neighbour, who is working as a ‘pimp’ at time of interview.
Dates and locations discussed: Toronto, Montreal, Calgary, Mexico, Puerto Vallarta, 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s
Access Restrictions
N/A
Location - Original
CLGA only in possession of digital copy. Cassette tape retained by Lionel Collier
Spoken in interview: March 6, 1988
Written on cassette tape: March 8, 1988
Scope and Content
SIDE A:
In the interview, Lionel states the date as ‘March 6, 1988’ — on the box, the date recorded is March 8, 1988. Darrell was born in August 6, 1941. His parents were from Saskatchewan. During the war, parents separated and mother remarried. Darrell grew up in Saskatchewan, on a farm. At age 1…
SIDE A:
In the interview, Lionel states the date as ‘March 6, 1988’ — on the box, the date recorded is March 8, 1988. Darrell was born in August 6, 1941. His parents were from Saskatchewan. During the war, parents separated and mother remarried. Darrell grew up in Saskatchewan, on a farm. At age 19, after graduating from high school, Darrell moved to California with a friend, where he stayed for a year (and first came out). Darrell moved into a shared house there, and he discovered that the other men living in the house were gay (at the time, Darrell says, the idea of ‘being gay’ was foreign to him). Darrell recalls, while in high school, his parents were away often. This encouraged his friends sleeping over, and at these sleepovers Darrell would often mutually masturbate with his friends. In grade 12, Darrell had sex with a girl and identified as bisexual. After moving back from California, Darrell worked for the Hudson’s Bay in Saskatoon. He could not find any gay life in Saskatoon, and began ‘going steady’ with a girl. She became pregnant, and he and his girlfriend got engaged, and Darrell began studying at Ryerson in Toronto in Jan 1, 1962. After his girlfriend had a miscarriage, the couple split up and Darrell realized he was more interested in men. While attending Ryerson, Darrell lived on Bay St with three gay roommates, and describes going out with them to the St. Charles. Upon first moving to Toronto, Darrell stayed at the YMCA. He slept with the receptionist, and stumbled upon the St Charles very soon after. Darrell also visited the downstairs of the Westbury, and Letros.
Dates and locations discussed: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. California, Toronto, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s
SIDE B:
Darrell discusses his experiences with psychiatry. Upon coming out as bisexual to his psychiatrist advised him that if he prefers women or men, he should just choose one — leading to Darrell identifying as gay. He also discusses being gay and working as a real estate agent, and his friendships and working relationships with other gay and straight real estate agents. Darrell discusses his passion for real estate, and various real estate investments he has made while working as a realtor. Darrell discusses his long term partner, Peter, and their relationship, which Darrell describes as "peaceful". Darrell advises Lionel to find a long term partner.
Dates and locations discussed: Toronto, 1970s, 1980s
Access Restrictions
N/A
Location - Original
CLGA only in possession of digital copy. Cassette tape retained by Lionel Collier
SIDE A:
Doug was born on April 21, 1941. Doug had four siblings. Doug was born in Toronto, and grew up at 607 Yonge St. His father ran a laundromat. Doug was hit by a streetcar at a young age, and was badly hurt. He went to Wellesley Public School, and Central Technical School. Doug was also confus…
SIDE A:
Doug was born on April 21, 1941. Doug had four siblings. Doug was born in Toronto, and grew up at 607 Yonge St. His father ran a laundromat. Doug was hit by a streetcar at a young age, and was badly hurt. He went to Wellesley Public School, and Central Technical School. Doug was also confused between being both Chinese (from his fathers side) and Jewish (from his mothers side). He was involved in the community from a very young age — he advocated for constructing a playground in his neighbourhood. Doug worked in printing until 1964 or 1965, and worked briefly for General Electric. A coworker lost their arm in one of the printing presses while he was working there. Doug was drinking a lot while working there, but then quit drinking in 1964 after getting alcohol poisoning in a bowling alley. Through bowling, Doug got involved with Chinese and Japanese community organizations. Doug mentions visiting Banff for a religious conference, and how that led him to quitting General Electric. Doug mentions becoming the Co-Chairman of the Chinese-Japanese Conference, and then moving onto the Chinese Canadian Association (which started in 1950) and eventually becoming president of CCA for two years. Then, Doug became involved in Clifton House for Boys. At that time, Doug still was suppressing his sexual attractions and was not out of the closet. Doug remembers catching two boys at the Clifton House having oral sex with one another, and writing it up. But, he never really thought about it. Doug felt unqualified working at Clinton House, and decided to return to school. He took a social service course at Ryerson University. Lionel notes that Doug came out post-Stonewall. Doug didn’t come out until he is 35, after he had been involved in many leadership roles. Before coming out, he increasingly went for his “oil change” (having gay sex at the baths). Then, this began interfering with his professional life. While at Ryerson, he did his placement with the pre-teens at the College St at YMCA, and with another group of teens in St Jamestown. He became concerned seeing lots of the young boys having sex with older men at these places. Doug begins describing Kennedy House, an institutional group home in Scarborough that Doug started. Doug started Kennedy House because he did not feel that Clifton House was properly preparing the youth living there to support themselves. Doug feels the institutional group home format of Kennedy House was extremely influential, and led to great support for Tri-Aid House. Doug began coming out in 1976, after being ripped off by a gay man and visiting CHAT (to inform others about this “kid” ripping people off). His friends from CHAT began living with him, and this led to the formation of Tri-Aid House.
Dates and locations mentioned: Toronto, Scarborough, Banff, St Jamestown, 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s
SIDE B:
Doug continues to discuss his involvement with CHAT after coming out. He recounts his first experience going out to the St Charles Tavern on Halloween in 1976, and being hit with an egg. This led him to reporting the violence on Halloween outside the St Charles to the police, and eventually lead to the increased protection outside the St Charles by the police. Doug mentions having a heart attack around that same time. Doug mentions “Chatsworth”, the charitable arm of CHAT. George Hislop denied the presidency for Chatsworth, and Doug assumed the position. Doug formed Tri-Aid House, around 1976, for queer kids coming out of Clifton or Kennedy House and needed help. The curfews at Tri-Aid House were much later, to allow the kids to socialize with other queer people. Doug discusses opposing George Hislop’s bid, and how electoral districts in the city shaped where the queer community lived in Toronto. Doug mentions hanging out at the Manatee at regular times, so people would know where to find him. Then, he became a centre of attention, which attracted youth to talking to him. Doug and Lionel begin discussing “Parkwatch” or “Park Watch”. Parkwatch protected queers in the parks from undercover cops or gaybashers. Venues including Philosopher’s Walk and Balfour Park. Doug mentions Park Watch central tenet being de-institutionalization and de-criminalization of gay youth. After five years, Park Watch was already receiving widespread support (including Positive Parents). He also mentions how the death of Diefenbaker aligned with positive press for Tri-Aid. Doug Chin believes that the parks are a key element of gay community and culture. He mentions taking Arnold Bruner into the parks (Arnold Bruner was commissioned by the city to do a special study of gay community in Toronto). While touring Bruner through Balfour Park. A person passes them, and Bruner became very afraid. He takes them to the “orgy area” of the park (west side). This got Bruner’s total interest. They also took Bruner to Allan Gardens. At the Gardens, they see a group of police officers. They realized that the cops were following Bruner, because the cops in the park were uniformed. They took him to Queen’s Park and Philosopher’s Walk. Doug noted that this is near where Bruner is doing his law degree. Bruner never noticed cruising in the park. Doug states that straight people do not notice gay cruising; even when Doug was in his youth growing up near St Joseph St., he did not notice cruising because he was not looking for it.
Dates and locations mentioned: Toronto, Scarborough, 1970s, 1980s
Access Restrictions
N/A
Location - Original
Digital copy and original audio cassette. Original cassette tape located in A/V room.
SIDE A:
The interview opens with Slipp describing himself as being “too proud to ask for help”, despite having been sick, unemployed and hungry in the past. Slipp mentions picking up food from the trash in Kensington, and smoking discarded cigarette butts (which gave him herpes, twice). Previously,…
SIDE A:
The interview opens with Slipp describing himself as being “too proud to ask for help”, despite having been sick, unemployed and hungry in the past. Slipp mentions picking up food from the trash in Kensington, and smoking discarded cigarette butts (which gave him herpes, twice). Previously, Slipp worked at Passe Murailles, but they stopped paying him and his other coworkers. Slipp describes attending university, the University of Toronto, and having a great time. But, at the university, he grew disenchanted and decided to join the army. Slipp discusses various clubs and fraternities he formed and was a part of while at the university, and the sex he had while participating in these things.
Dates and locations discussed: Toronto, 1930s, 1940s
SIDE B:
Earl Whitfield Slipp describes himself as having been gay since he was “three years old”. He says he was “seduced” at age 12 by a “wonderful man”. Slipp describes his early sexual experiences in the Boy Scouts, spying on older leaders having sex and measuring and comparing penises with other Boy Scouts. Slipp describes cruising the washrooms at the University of Toronto in the 1930s, and then later on going to Letros. Slipp also mentions struggling to create long-lasting/permanent relationships with other men. Slipp gets emotional discussing this, after bringing up a particular lover who rejects his romance.
Dates and locations discussed: Toronto, 1920s, 1930s, 1940s, 1950s
Access Restrictions
N/A
Location - Original
CLGA only in possession of digital copy. Cassette tape retained by Lionel Collier
CONTENT WARNING: Anti-semitism (reference to Jews as an “evil people”), misogyny.
SIDE A:
Slipp begins discussing WWII and the execution of not only Jews, but also queer folks and communists. Slipp complains about too much attention being paid to Jewish people for and after the Holocaust, and goes…
CONTENT WARNING: Anti-semitism (reference to Jews as an “evil people”), misogyny.
SIDE A:
Slipp begins discussing WWII and the execution of not only Jews, but also queer folks and communists. Slipp complains about too much attention being paid to Jewish people for and after the Holocaust, and goes on to criticize the formation of Israel, and the role of the ‘jewry of America’. Slipp refers to Jewish people as “an evil people”. Slipp then discusses his marriage, and his son.
Dates and locations discussed: Toronto, 1920s, 1930s, 1940s, 1950s
SIDE B:
This recording is only 1 minute long. Slipp cuts the interview short, stating that “that’s enough”, he “is tired of talking”.
Access Restrictions
N/A
Location - Original
CLGA only in possession of digital copy. Cassette tape retained by Lionel Collier
SIDES A and B:
In this oral history interview Elgin Blair and Richard Brown discuss their lives in Toronto as gay men. The interview begins with Elgin (58 years old) commenting on his coming out experience, his puritanical upbringing, his struggle to accept his homosexuality, time in service during…
SIDES A and B:
In this oral history interview Elgin Blair and Richard Brown discuss their lives in Toronto as gay men. The interview begins with Elgin (58 years old) commenting on his coming out experience, his puritanical upbringing, his struggle to accept his homosexuality, time in service during the war, radical consciousness, and his work in the Unitarian gay caucus. Other topics include gay social structure in Toronto in the 1950s, gay bars, and Elgin’s involvement in the gay liberation movement and gay organizations such as CHAT, The Body Politic, Older Gay Association, and the Gays and Lesbians against Disarmament (GLAD), as well as in the CCF. Elgin also discusses how bars and pubs, and the people who met there, were instrumental in his coping with depression and sexual orientation. Richard Brown joins the conversation in the second half of the interview. He discusses the important role of gay business like bars and baths in the building of the gay community. He also comments on his personal life, growing up, coming out experience, and involvement in Lambda.
Dates and locations discussed: Toronto, 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s
Access Restrictions
N/A
Location - Original
Digital copy and original audio cassette. Original cassette tape located in A/V room.
SIDE A:
Recording begins with Gordon mid-sentence discussing cruising in the parks. He mentions that hippies coming down from Yorkville to the parks to sleep (in the 60s) is what drew the police to the park. He discusses advantages, disadvantages of this increased visibility since the 1950s. Gordo…
SIDE A:
Recording begins with Gordon mid-sentence discussing cruising in the parks. He mentions that hippies coming down from Yorkville to the parks to sleep (in the 60s) is what drew the police to the park. He discusses advantages, disadvantages of this increased visibility since the 1950s. Gordon was born in 1940, near Beverly between University and Spadina, before moving to the East End (where he went to East York Collegiate). He had a non-religious upbringing, and discusses his parents’ work. He has one younger brother. Gordon discusses his uncertainty whether or not his mother knows he is gay. Gordon had his first realizations about his same sex attraction at age 11 or 12, and would visit a nude beach by Flemington Park in the Don Valley. That is where he was first exposed to cruising and gay sex. Gordon also describes Thorncliffe Park, prior to the Don Valley Parkway, as a wonderful place to cruise, alongside beaches like Woodbine Beach and Hanlan’s Point. Gordon describes how he would find out about gay spaces, and his being intimidated by certain venues, and not others.
Dates and locations discussed: Canada, Toronto, 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s
SIDE B:
Gordon discusses Peter Marshall’s and others’ get togethers in the 1960s, and the types of people and activities that would go on at them. Gordon continues his conversation on cruising, and then his various housing experiences (particularly living with other straight men). Gordon eventually got his own apartment, at City Park (the only high rise apartment around close to his work, he says), and then moved to another plane in 1966. Gordon lists various gay spaces around Toronto, or mixed places where gay men could ‘carry on’. Gordon describes how the St Charles Tavern was queered by gay men, in the 1960s, from an exclusive restaurant to an exclusively gay bar. Gordon also mentions going to video booths to watch pornography, watching straight sex, near Fran’s Restaurant by Yonge and Dundas. Gordon describes how men would cruise across booths, and have oral sex using glory holes in the booths. Similar activity, Gordon mentions, would occur at the University of Toronto and Union Station. Gordon prides himself on staying on the toilet using the glory hole for 16 hours, ‘on the throne longer than Queen Victoria’.
Dates and locations discussed: Toronto, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s
Access Restrictions
N/A
Location - Original
CLGA only in possession of digital copy. Cassette tape retained by Lionel Collier
SIDE C:
Lionel begins this side describing the Foolscap project briefly. Gordon describes police encounters while cruising in Philosopher’s Walk. Gordon also found a heating tunnel under a grate where ‘hippies’ would sleep under Philosopher’s Walk, with some gay people there cruising as well when i…
SIDE C:
Lionel begins this side describing the Foolscap project briefly. Gordon describes police encounters while cruising in Philosopher’s Walk. Gordon also found a heating tunnel under a grate where ‘hippies’ would sleep under Philosopher’s Walk, with some gay people there cruising as well when it was cold outside. Gordon states that cruising in YMCA showers ended when the YMCA became co-ed and later became a police station. Gordon mentions various steambaths around the city, but did not partake often. Gordon describes the bathhouse raids as a galvanizing moment for gay community building. Gordon feels that HIV/AIDS is having a similar effect at time of interview.
Dates and locations discussed: Toronto, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s
SIDE D:
Gordon describes himself as a party thrower, and describes the various parties he would throw. Gordon suggests future interviews, where he can show Lionel the photos he took of these parties. Lionel and Gordon discuss hustling and paying for sex, and condoms as a new part of gay sex.On a more personal level, Lionel and Gordon discuss condom use, and the loss of spontaneity of sex. Gordon seems uncertain about the safety of oral sex without protection. Lionel and Gordon discuss 'fag hags', and friendships with lesbian women.
Dates and locations discussed: Toronto, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s
Access Restrictions
N/A
Location - Original
CLGA only in possession of digital copy. Cassette tape retained by Lionel Collier
SIDE A:
Karsten awas born in Germany, when Germany was occupied by the British. He emigrated to Winnipeg, Canada in 1959, with the intention of moving to the prairies to own a farm. Karsten talks about his and his siblings' experiences with faith, with him subscribing to Christianity and one of his…
SIDE A:
Karsten awas born in Germany, when Germany was occupied by the British. He emigrated to Winnipeg, Canada in 1959, with the intention of moving to the prairies to own a farm. Karsten talks about his and his siblings' experiences with faith, with him subscribing to Christianity and one of his siblings becoming Mormon. Karsten also recounts a story where he came out to his friend and confessed his love for him (in 1971), while in university. Karsten says that the friend put detectives on him who interrogated him and suggested they would charge him with harassment. This impacted Karsten heavily, and led to him dropping out of university. Eventually, this friend even outed Karsten to his parents. Karsten published a book, Rib by Rib, of gay love poetry. Karsten recounts a sexual encounter in the washroom of a theatre, at age 14 in 1964 (before homosexuality had been decriminalized). Karsten believes strongly in ‘at least a lower age of consent’ - because ‘it is not fair to deny young people sexuality’. Karsten met Doug Chin just after Doug’s heart attack, in 1976-1977, through CHAT. Karsten became a secretary of sorts with CHATsworth, and then founded Tri-Aid with Doug after they both left.
Dates and locations discussed: Germany, Winnipeg, Toronto, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s
SIDE B:
Karsten discusses his experiences working with The Body Politic, CHAT and other organizations, and the nature of the funding and grants for these organizations at that time. Karsten describes his rich and varied resume, working for various queer organizations, the Ontario Arts Council, and in publishing. Karsten also discusses forming Tri-Aid (sp?) in 1977 with a group of social workers, students, etc. as a means to improve social services. Doug Chin was the founder of several group homes in Scarborough, and the group decided to focus on developing group homes. Karsten recounts the various ways the group home was targeted and protested, and the groups that attempted to shut it down. Karsten also discusses the animosity between George Hislop and Doug Chin. Karsten specifically members the way Doug was targeted with homophobic accusations even from other queer people, and perceptions of the ‘ultimate red herring of all: gay people and young people’. Karsten later worked with CTYS: Central Toronto Youth Service.
Dates and locations discussed: Toronto, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s
Access Restrictions
N/A
Location - Original
CLGA only in possession of digital copy. Cassette tape retained by Lionel Collier
SIDE C: Karsten continues to discuss his various jobs and work in activiam, including at the Yonge-Bloor Bay and at the AIDS Committee. Karsten discusses a new group, ‘AIDS Action’, as a political/lobbying group. Lionel had already attended the meeting. Karsten discusses the Bathhouse Raids, and th…
SIDE C: Karsten continues to discuss his various jobs and work in activiam, including at the Yonge-Bloor Bay and at the AIDS Committee. Karsten discusses a new group, ‘AIDS Action’, as a political/lobbying group. Lionel had already attended the meeting. Karsten discusses the Bathhouse Raids, and the role of both the Morality Police and the Intelligence Police in executing the raids under the pretence of ‘Illegal Weapons’.
Dates and locations discussed: Toronto, 1970s, 1980s
SIDE D:
Karsten and Lionel discuss Bill Mole, and suggest that he is only an activist for publicity. Karsten continues to discuss the GCDC, the AIDS Committee, GATE and other organizations, and how Doug Chin was repeatedly targeted by many members of these groups.
Dates and locations discussed: Toronto, 1970s, 1980s
Access Restrictions
N/A
Location - Original
CLGA only in possession of digital copy. Cassette tape retained by Lionel Collier
