SIDE A:
This interview consists of a review of a series of photographs with Lionel Collier. Gordon lists the various places these photographs where taken, and names the subjects. Many of the photographs are with lovers, on trips, and at parties Gordon held at his various homes and apartments. Each …
SIDE A:
This interview consists of a review of a series of photographs with Lionel Collier. Gordon lists the various places these photographs where taken, and names the subjects. Many of the photographs are with lovers, on trips, and at parties Gordon held at his various homes and apartments. Each photograph is numbered, and Gordon begins each description with the number of the photo he is describing.
SIDE B:
Continued review of photographs.
Access Restrictions
N/A
Location - Original
CLGA only in possession of digital copy. Cassette tape retained by Lionel Collier
The archivist believes that, despite this interview being labeled as an interview with Gilles Brasseur by Gordon Whitrock, this recording is actually of Gordon Whitrock reviewing photos of Gilles Brasseur.
The archivist believes that, despite this interview being labeled as an interview with Gilles Brasseur by Gordon Whitrock, this recording is actually of Gordon Whitrock reviewing photos of Gilles Brasseur.
Access Restrictions
N/A
Location - Original
CLGA only in possession of digital copy. Cassette tape retained by Lionel Collier
SIDE A:
CONTENT WARNING: Anti-Indigenous racism/colonialism, misogyny towards queer women
Recording begins with Lionel and Bryan mid-conversation discussing insurance companies and their homophobic/serophobic practices. Bryan refuses to offer his age, but on the cover of the tape it states that he …
SIDE A:
CONTENT WARNING: Anti-Indigenous racism/colonialism, misogyny towards queer women
Recording begins with Lionel and Bryan mid-conversation discussing insurance companies and their homophobic/serophobic practices. Bryan refuses to offer his age, but on the cover of the tape it states that he was born in 1945. He grew up in Toronto, spending some of his youth living on the Island. Bryan also discusses his early sexual experiences, and discovery that he is gay. At age 16, Bryan joined the army, largely because of his extremely strict, homophobic parents. While in the army, Bryan found a ‘substitute father figure’ in one of the leaders there. Bryan describes sleeping in a room with 33 other men, all in the same age group, and having sex with almost all of them. Bryan states that he is a member of MENSA, and a certified ‘genius’. He also suffered from heart problems, which lead to him leaving the army.
Dates and locations discussed: Toronto, 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s
SIDE B:
Bryan describes a man, Tim, being extremely disappointed by his leaving the army. After leaving, Tim’s mom contacted Bryan and let him know that on the day that Bryan left, Tim died in his sleep. After returning to Toronto (at age 20), Bryan moved back in with his family, and began working as a designer and tailor for men’s clothing. He did not like this field of work, and switched into working in communications. Bryan began cruising along Yonge St, and working as a dancer at a strip joint called Rooster’s in Detroit. Bryan began performing in drag, and working at the 511, and the St Charles Tavern. Bryan would have to hide while entering these clubs, and he describes the danger of being in drag in public — particularly in front of the St Charles on Halloween. Bryan describes being a drag queen as dangerous and cliquey in Toronto, whereas Detroit felt safer and more welcoming (despite that Detroit was considered generally more dangerous than Toronto in the 1960s and 1970s). Bryan describes that race relations were a much more contentious issue than sexuality at that time in Detroit. Bryan later began working as a manager at a racetrack, and describes having to keep his sexuality secret in a workplace — with one of the employees losing their job for being gay. Bryan describes his own activism, and participating in a protest for gay workers rights. Bryan also describes feeling ‘violated’ by the bath house raids, as someone who attended the bath houses.
Dates and locations discussed: Detroit, Toronto, 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s
Access Restrictions
N/A
Location - Original
CLGA only in possession of digital copy. Cassette tape retained by Lionel Collier
SIDE C:
Bryan worked with DQ behind the scenes, with costumes, staging, etc. Bryan describes a speech at the event, where he said ‘it is time to be active again’, and to stop being on the sidelines. Bryan also describes his own work as a hustler (sex worker) in further detail. He also describes run…
SIDE C:
Bryan worked with DQ behind the scenes, with costumes, staging, etc. Bryan describes a speech at the event, where he said ‘it is time to be active again’, and to stop being on the sidelines. Bryan also describes his own work as a hustler (sex worker) in further detail. He also describes run-ins with the police — once when having sex with another man in a car by the beach, and another which resulted in him being jailed in Detroit. Bryan describes other altercations with the police, unrelated to his being gay. He also describes a relationship with a woman, and his sexual relations with her brother. Both the woman and her brother are now married. Bryan continues to describe his superior intelligence and ability. Bryan also discusses why he believes many drag queens fall into addiction. Bryan considers the term ‘drag queen’ derogatory, and prefers ‘female impersonator’. He delineates being a drag queen from being “transexual,” and describes him wanting to do drag because he enjoys acting, and being a voice for the community. Bryan feels that he struggles to develop intimate relationships due to his superior intelligence. Bryan has been in relationships with both men and women, despite being much more attracted to men. Bryan previously worked managing horse farms, and he describes why he eventually left this work. Bryan later became a private detective/invesitigator
Dates and locations discussed: Detroit, Toronto, 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s
SIDE D:
Bryan discusses cruising, paying for sex and hustling in Philosopher’s Walk and Queen’s Park. Bryan discusses aging in the gay community, and the valuing of wealth in older gay men (‘they care less about the bulge in your front, and more the bulge in your back pocket’). Bryan never cruised washrooms, as it ‘wasn’t worth the gamble’ of getting caught.
Dates and locations discussed: Toronto, 1970s, 1980s
Access Restrictions
N/A
Location - Original
CLGA only in possession of digital copy. Cassette tape retained by Lionel Collier
SIDE A:
The interview opens with Lionel saying they will ‘pick up where they left off’. Alan discusses taking the first gay-oriented course at University of Toronto, taught by Michael Lynch. Alan also mentions attending a few CHAT meetings. Alan also discusses the danger of cruising, and particular…
SIDE A:
The interview opens with Lionel saying they will ‘pick up where they left off’. Alan discusses taking the first gay-oriented course at University of Toronto, taught by Michael Lynch. Alan also mentions attending a few CHAT meetings. Alan also discusses the danger of cruising, and particularly cruising theatres in Calgary. Alan discusses evaluating where he wants his future to go, and trying to under go a life ‘cleaning’ physically, emotionally and intellectually. Alan also mentions taking a weekend course titled ‘AIDS Mastery’. Alan discusses the various lessons taught in the workshops, including telling himself that he loved himself, and looking at himself in the mirror for at least one minute every day. Alan mentions being caught cruising in Bloor station by the police, but he can’t remember if he was taken to the police station.
Dates and locations discussed: Toronto, Calgary, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s
SIDE B:
Alan recounts a story of him cruising north of the creek in David Balfour Park, and being caught with a partner. Alan also recounts his positive test results for his HIV test, and how he coped with discovering he tested seropositive at a time when very little information on HIV and the validity of test results was available or accessible. Alan recounts telling his sexual partners about his results, and many of them still wanting to have sex with him. Alan predominantly has oral sex, and he does not enjoy using condoms due to the texture and taste of them. Alan questions the terminology of not taking any ‘unnecessary risks’ — as, under that framework, it appears sex as a whole is unnecessary. He considers attending a sex addiction treatment program, so that he can go abstinent. Alan talks about his other HIV positive friends, some of whom have stayed with him. Alan discusses attending church, and particularly his likes and dislikes for MCC (Metropolitan Community Church). Alan says he feels like an alien, a misfit on the planet. Many of the churches he has attended have validated this feeling for him.
Dates and locations discussed: Toronto, 1970s, 1980s
Access Restrictions
N/A
Location - Original
CLGA only in possession of digital copy. Cassette tape retained by Lionel Collier
SIDE A:
Begins with a discussion of another man named Bill. February 24th 1932, hometown is Napanee, ON. Mother involved with United Church. Talks about parades and cultural heritage in Napanee. Has a sister. Went to University at age 20. Came to Toronto to do a Masters in Social Work. Did undergra…
SIDE A:
Begins with a discussion of another man named Bill. February 24th 1932, hometown is Napanee, ON. Mother involved with United Church. Talks about parades and cultural heritage in Napanee. Has a sister. Went to University at age 20. Came to Toronto to do a Masters in Social Work. Did undergrad in Queens. Started undergrad in 1951 at age 19. Doesn’t remember explicit discussion of gayness in school, although engaged in light sexual play in elementary school by playing. By grades 7 and 8 this escalated to being more physical, and kids would touch each other through games and play. Nothing gay specific. Quite sexually active with other guys in high school. Identified as a sexually aggressive homo in high school even though he didn’t know what this was. Friend group would have sex with each other, despite only a couple identifying as a homo. His first time was with his cousin, staying overnight on Fridays. This went on regularly for a year and a half, when he was 13 and his cousin was 14. This escalated to experimenting with other guys at cottages, mostly family friends and other close people. Describes getting married to a woman and taking his kids to the same cottage where he would play with other boys and noticed that sound travelled easily, so he wonders if his parents and relatives found out about his antics back in the day. With his cousin he just masturbated, but with the other kids in his circle he started having anal sex at age 14, happening more frequently than masturbation. He never engaged in oral sex until way later in his life. Would go out with girls with his friends and then have sex with each other after dropping the girls home. Involved with a guy from ages 15-18, romantic on his part and sometimes on the other guy’s end too. He became more and more affectionate as they eventually went to University together and shared a room. The guy left school for a year and became involved with women so they ended their fling, until they reconnected after Bill’s marriage at the cottage. Parents wouldn’t talk about homosexuals directly, but given that his uncle and a relative had a close perhaps homoerotic relationship these issues were familiar. Lionel asks about how he felt about his identity before getting married. Bill said that while being in Germany in 1954-55 he met some Fulbright scholars at the University of Munster. He had a momentary fling with one of these students and was introduced to oral sex and gay liberation issues. He had met his wife the summer before leaving for Germany, and when they reunited at Queens he realized that either he got married then or he never would. Carol, his wife, was the only woman he had been sexual with and felt somewhat comfortable with. Got involved with Christian student groups in Queens, mostly surrounding faith and community.
Dates and locations mentioned: 1940s, 1950s, 1960s. Toronto, Kingston, Germany, Montreal.
SIDE B:
Tape begins with a question from Lionel about whether Bill was really attracted to women. Bill had a thing with a girl throughout in school for several years, and they would cuddle and touch each other lightly on occasion. Describes meeting his wife Carol and mentions different dates as well as an event while on a trip when they first had a sexual encounter. They reconnected after he got back from Europe and only got together two months after he got here, but they didn’t have sex. They decided to wait after marriage and decided to do so shortly after. He realized she was the person he liked the most, and she was very androgynous. They got married and stayed in Kingston for two years and then moved to Toronto. His daughter was born when they moved to Toronto. He worked with the Ministry of Corrections for a while. He had no male sexual experiences for around 14 years, until his wife got pneumonia and while she was in the hospital he had a friend over and they hooked up for a weekend. He found it much more exciting than with Carol. He would come visit regularly until he moved to Toronto, meeting together regularly and even having sex with their wives in the house. Was also involved with other men while his wife was away or out of the house, including a student who lived with them for a while. Eventually fell in love with a man and found something very meaningful, but being afraid of hurting his marriage they broke up after six months. Shortly he realized his marriage was dead, partly for political reasons as he was becoming much more involved. They talked and decided to end their marriage by April and he moved out by June of 1977. On his first night alone he went to the baths, as he would go either on Tuesdays or Wednesdays once a week at the Club Baths and the Richmond. He met a man named Frank and invited him over, eventually seeing him more frequently and by August it was going steady and he moved in. He went from one relationship to another one. His kids thought Frank had been there the whole time, including his older son who was gay too. He was suspicious of his son being gay as he was a cook and would meet other guys through the restaurant scene, eventually finding out that his son had a lover named Dennis and another one named Johnny afterwards. His son came out a while after Bill got divorced. His son was fearful of telling his mom as he didn’t want to let her down given her depression after the divorce. Bill didn’t like going to bars or parks just baths, as these were more convenient for his needs. Mentions a bar named Dudes north of Wellesley, on a laneway west of Yonge. He only went to the baths after 1969 when homosexuality was legalized. When he was 16 he did drag for a party. Describes dressing more masculine when he came out as thats what he felt his ideal man wanted.
Dates and locations mentioned: 1950s, 1950s, 1970s. Toronto, Napanee, Kingston.
Access Restrictions
N/A
Location - Original
CLGA only in possession of digital copy. Cassette tape retained by Lionel Collier
SIDE C:
Begins with a conversation about Tony and Frank and the jealousy between them. Eventually got involved with UofT, and the university (as well ad the 519) became much more prominent in his social life. Went on the board for the 519 in 1979 and was regularly in it, eventually becoming the Pre…
SIDE C:
Begins with a conversation about Tony and Frank and the jealousy between them. Eventually got involved with UofT, and the university (as well ad the 519) became much more prominent in his social life. Went on the board for the 519 in 1979 and was regularly in it, eventually becoming the President of the 519. For him this was this contribution to the gay community. Describes how other directors at the 519 would want to steer away from gay programming but through his involvement he ensured that it remained gay-focused. Was in a number of committees at the 519. During a time he didn’t have much formal contact with his family despite important celebrations. Describes changing and evolving relationships with his children, as with time the tensions passed. Taught a course on counselling at George Brown. Mentions going to gay clubs with his gay son and being mistaken for being a couple. Recalls his life become much more affluent after getting divorced, as he was making more money and with time his kids became more independent. Talks about buying property, investing, and doing home renovations. They talk about the making of gay spaces and the different ways that gays organize their apartments to socialize and make themselves comfortable. After a long chat about home renovations, Lionel asks whether he ever fooled around in the UofT washrooms, which Bill says he never did. Bill was involved with a social work community group (name unintelligible), managing to get sexual orientation to get included into the social work code of ethics, and planning seminars and events. Social workers who were out would be stigmatized and some would be barred from positions that worked with kids to satisfy public demands. Also involved with the gay caucus of the NDP, involved since its early days of the CCF. Discusses engagements with the NDP and also the Communist Party.
Dates and locations discussed: Toronto, 1970s.
SIDE D:
Tape begins with a description of a sexual encounter Bill had with another man while in Germany. Lionel asks how being gay or coming out affected his career, as Bill changes jobs often. He expresses having had no issues with it at George Brown, and his help was was sought to help gay students at the college. Talks about how a student once tried to blackmail him and out him in exchange for better grades, as she argued he couldn’t mark properly while being gay. The student organized against him but the administration took his side. Another student mentioned being uncomfortable with him being gay and teaching her, however this didn’t escalate. Lionel asks about his reaction to the 1981 raids, and Bill says he was very outraged and his anger led him to be active and organize during the protests. Was on the board of the 519 by the time. Speaks of the lack of clear and complete government policies on HIV/AIDS, comparing it to the public health efforts for polio which were organized in a matter of weeks. Describes the high number of offices and specialists AIDS patients need to access at different hospitals. Interview ends and tape stops around the 19 minute mark and resumes on (presumably?) a different interview. Lionel asks about his circle which includes John Alan Lee and Bob Miller and their reasoning for joining the fight for social liberation. People with CCF roots. Bill speaks of movements in United and Methodist Churches to be political towards social issues, which influenced early CCF politicians. This background allowed him and others in his circle to become more free to express and explore his sexuality. Bill goes on a discussion about marriages and how they fail due to pressures from religion and government which work to strain and weaken the institution of the family. Speaks of how many religions have a positive and important view of sex, as opposed to the Catholic tradition.
Dates and locations mentioned: 1970s, 1980s. Toronto, Germany.
Access Restrictions
N/A
Location - Original
CLGA only in possession of digital copy. Cassette tape retained by Lionel Collier
SIDE A:
Recording begins with Gordon mid-sentence discussing cruising in the parks. He mentions that hippies coming down from Yorkville to the parks to sleep (in the 60s) is what drew the police to the park. He discusses advantages, disadvantages of this increased visibility since the 1950s. Gordo…
SIDE A:
Recording begins with Gordon mid-sentence discussing cruising in the parks. He mentions that hippies coming down from Yorkville to the parks to sleep (in the 60s) is what drew the police to the park. He discusses advantages, disadvantages of this increased visibility since the 1950s. Gordon was born in 1940, near Beverly between University and Spadina, before moving to the East End (where he went to East York Collegiate). He had a non-religious upbringing, and discusses his parents’ work. He has one younger brother. Gordon discusses his uncertainty whether or not his mother knows he is gay. Gordon had his first realizations about his same sex attraction at age 11 or 12, and would visit a nude beach by Flemington Park in the Don Valley. That is where he was first exposed to cruising and gay sex. Gordon also describes Thorncliffe Park, prior to the Don Valley Parkway, as a wonderful place to cruise, alongside beaches like Woodbine Beach and Hanlan’s Point. Gordon describes how he would find out about gay spaces, and his being intimidated by certain venues, and not others.
Dates and locations discussed: Canada, Toronto, 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s
SIDE B:
Gordon discusses Peter Marshall’s and others’ get togethers in the 1960s, and the types of people and activities that would go on at them. Gordon continues his conversation on cruising, and then his various housing experiences (particularly living with other straight men). Gordon eventually got his own apartment, at City Park (the only high rise apartment around close to his work, he says), and then moved to another plane in 1966. Gordon lists various gay spaces around Toronto, or mixed places where gay men could ‘carry on’. Gordon describes how the St Charles Tavern was queered by gay men, in the 1960s, from an exclusive restaurant to an exclusively gay bar. Gordon also mentions going to video booths to watch pornography, watching straight sex, near Fran’s Restaurant by Yonge and Dundas. Gordon describes how men would cruise across booths, and have oral sex using glory holes in the booths. Similar activity, Gordon mentions, would occur at the University of Toronto and Union Station. Gordon prides himself on staying on the toilet using the glory hole for 16 hours, ‘on the throne longer than Queen Victoria’.
Dates and locations discussed: Toronto, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s
Access Restrictions
N/A
Location - Original
CLGA only in possession of digital copy. Cassette tape retained by Lionel Collier
SIDE C:
Lionel begins this side describing the Foolscap project briefly. Gordon describes police encounters while cruising in Philosopher’s Walk. Gordon also found a heating tunnel under a grate where ‘hippies’ would sleep under Philosopher’s Walk, with some gay people there cruising as well when i…
SIDE C:
Lionel begins this side describing the Foolscap project briefly. Gordon describes police encounters while cruising in Philosopher’s Walk. Gordon also found a heating tunnel under a grate where ‘hippies’ would sleep under Philosopher’s Walk, with some gay people there cruising as well when it was cold outside. Gordon states that cruising in YMCA showers ended when the YMCA became co-ed and later became a police station. Gordon mentions various steambaths around the city, but did not partake often. Gordon describes the bathhouse raids as a galvanizing moment for gay community building. Gordon feels that HIV/AIDS is having a similar effect at time of interview.
Dates and locations discussed: Toronto, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s
SIDE D:
Gordon describes himself as a party thrower, and describes the various parties he would throw. Gordon suggests future interviews, where he can show Lionel the photos he took of these parties. Lionel and Gordon discuss hustling and paying for sex, and condoms as a new part of gay sex.On a more personal level, Lionel and Gordon discuss condom use, and the loss of spontaneity of sex. Gordon seems uncertain about the safety of oral sex without protection. Lionel and Gordon discuss 'fag hags', and friendships with lesbian women.
Dates and locations discussed: Toronto, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s
Access Restrictions
N/A
Location - Original
CLGA only in possession of digital copy. Cassette tape retained by Lionel Collier
SIDE A:
There is music playing in the background of this interview. Lionel recalls the night of the Bathhouse raids, his participation in the protests, and feelings of fear (the raids happened when Collier was 21). Bob’s hot tubs were raided in 1978 - the first raids were at the Barracks prior to t…
SIDE A:
There is music playing in the background of this interview. Lionel recalls the night of the Bathhouse raids, his participation in the protests, and feelings of fear (the raids happened when Collier was 21). Bob’s hot tubs were raided in 1978 - the first raids were at the Barracks prior to that, while the hot tubs were being constructed. The tubs went forward with construction despite these raids, as the police said they only raided the Barracks because of the S&M. Bob Slea was born August 4, 1948. (may have stated 1938) in Niagara Falls. His mother stayed at home, his father was a carpenter. Both parents were English. His mother was a Jehovah’s Witness, and his father was a member of the United Church. Bob did not attend church much. Bob says his exposure to religious attitudes were not ‘brainwashing,’ rather ‘take it if you want it’ Bob never celebrated birthday, or Christmas as a kid - instead, ‘presents all year around” as his parents were “very generous with their children’. He says he had nothing ‘bad to say’ about his religious upbringing. He still attends church to this day occasionally. As a kid, the ‘word gay wasn’t in anybody’s vocabulary at the time. You were ‘artistic’” Bob also had a gay brother. At age 11, Bob became aware he was interested in men, which made him feel ‘quite strange’ - no one ever spoke about men being attracted to other men. Around age 14, at the ‘backyard boys club’, boys would sleep overnight in a hut in the backyard where they would experiment with each other, but none of the boys turned out to be gay later in life. No one really talked about being gay, per Bob - in fact, the boys would often feel a sense of shame the day after. Bob recalls being attracted to one particular girl while travelling, whom Bob fell in love with - but he did not have sex with her until after he married her. He was aware he was still attracted to men, but wanted a family and thought it would work out with her. She was aware that he was attracted to men, and she too hoped it would change after they married. However, it did not change - they separated 3 or 4 times over the 20 year marriage. The couple had one daughter and then divorced in 1981. He discusses Letros and Club 511 (which he mistakenly calls it Club 501) on Yonge St. He says that was the first public place where men could dance together. The night it opened, uniformed police were in the club - but. Bob felt that in those days, there was a good rapport between the police and gay men. Not too long after that, the Jukebox opened on Wellesley, owned by two lesbian women - the second place where two men or women could dance together. Bob worked at a lot of dance studios. As a kid, his brother worked at the National Ballet of Canada, and was a best man for Celia Franca’s wedding. Bob started taking summer ballet courses - although he did not enjoy ballet. He was much more interested in ballroom. Bob was never very close with brother, and was never able to sit down with him and talk about being gay. Bob feels he was quite obviously gay (mannerisms, the things he liked, etc.) so his brother must have known - but his brother seemed to not want to befriend Bob. Bob would often attend gay bars with his dance colleagues, and felt that at dance studios they ‘preferred gay people’. Bob’s recalls a cruising experience on the subway and at Broadview and Danforth, where a man approached him and asked him if he was gay - Bob at the time (likely around 1958) did not know what ‘gay’ meant. Bob found him attractive as Bob was attracted to older men at the time. The man invited Bob to his house (near Greenwood) and Bob spent the night with him. This was before Bob was married. While attending the clubs, Bob thought ‘gee I really want to own one of these clubs’. Bob discusses the workflow of attending the bars, and how he would meet many more people at the bar then compared to the time of interview. Bob mentions his friend “Jim Greene” - “I thought he was the only Black person in Toronto” - “never saw a Black person walking down Yonge St.” He also mentions seeing other Black drag queens performing at 511, including performers impersonating Eartha Kitt. Bob and Jim Greene opened a gay brunch club, after attending one of the brunches, you’d have to host the brunches. This became a major way to meet people — “An excuse to get together on a Sunday” - with 30 or 40 members. Seeing the success of this, the two opened a Dinner club where people would attend restaurants. At that time, Bob was living on Sherbourne by Dundas. Bob could not remember how they advertised, a lot of it was through word of mouth - he mentions that he may have possibly advertised in One magazine. Noted Montreal was much more open at that time, when recalls saw men kissing one another and meeting many Lesbian women while visiting Montreal. Bob lived with a McGill student while visiting Montreal, and worked at an elevator in Simpsons, but eventually had to leave because of his poor French. Bob also lived in Puerto Vallarta for three years. Bob recalls Peter Marshall’s parties - Collier mentions dinner plans with him. Bob notes that a lot of the gay party throwers were connected to the CBC, does not want to mention their names. He remembers attending parties in The Red Lion Room, in 1961 (also the year his daughter was born) - it did not remain open long. Bob also recalls a couple of taverns across from City Hall, with drag queens. Particularly recalls and describes Geraldine, a vibrant, happy and very funny drag queen that performed at these taverns. Also recalls large busloads of men who would visit the taverns in this area, who were very rough/often alcoholics. The drag queens ‘ran the place’, and were very accepted despite the patronage. Bob Slea recalls it as very rowdy (no fights, but lots of laughter and shouts, etc.) and a lot of fun. Bob remembers a lot of alcohol on the scene, even moreso than at time of interview. Bob feels people are drinking less at time of interview for health reasons, and also due to increased popularity of smoking marijuana. Bob recalls another drag queen, Brandy, who he thinks was one of the first queens to perform professionally. Brandy lived by Jarvis and Huntly, across from the police headquarters. Brandy dealt with a lot of trouble travelling between their apartment and the Warwick Hotel, being harassed by police who though they were a sex worker. He notes that one would often dress up for Letros and even St Charles, and also that there was good Chinese food at the restaurant at the St Charles.
Dates and Locations mentioned: Toronto, Puerto Vallarta, Montreal, Niagara Falls, 1940s, 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s
SIDE B:
Bob reminisces for the disco scene. He notes the big change from sitting at a table to drink to standing up at a bar, and how this changed the bar scene significantly Bob felt that Peter Marshall ‘seemed to [be] a very quiet, shy person’ despite throwing such parties, yet ‘no-one seemed to know what he did’. Bob only ever saw Marshall at the St Charles and Letros. Bob used to go to Burlington, where a man had a yacht and a club. Bob went twice, often declined invitations because of the distance. Bob could not remember his name. Bob describes Peter Marshall’s parties in further detail. Bob recalls living with a lover on Jarvis St. One time, this lover thew a gay dinner party, and Bob saw (at age 20) his brother as a guest at the party. This was the first time him and his brother confronted each other about their sexualities face to face. They had suspected it, as they often would mention mutual gay friends. Bob’s lover knew whom he was inviting. This made Bob feel very uncomfortable. Bob also recalls the circular bar at the St Charles, and discusses the increased sociability of the bar. Bob discusses the Ford hotel, which had a gay organist and the ‘cruisiest bathroom in town’. Bob would meet men at the pub there, and then take them to a room. Bob noted that the rooms were very expensive - and some rooms didn’t even have a full bath. Bob stayed there often, and met a lot of people there. The bar was a ‘sing along bar’ where the organist would play music and patrons would sing along songs like ‘Bye Bye Blackbird’. Bob mentions ‘you would see every gay man in town there at some point’. Before being known as a gay bar, the St Charles was really known as a quality Chinese restaurant - ‘you wouldn’t be embarrassed to tell anybody you were going for dinner at the St Charles.’ Bob visited it the night it closed, and mentioned their was a sale where they were selling chopsticks, etc. to patrons. Bob recalls never wanting a permanent lover. He was ‘promiscuous’, and could not contemplate being with just one person. Bob also discusses affairs, with a German lover and another man for a year and half. Bob feels that, as long as he can remember the “Gay Ghetto” has “always been in this area”, but also notes that when he opened the baths on Isabella, it was not known as a gay area. The baths were an empty factory for Evangeline. They leased the second floor because they wanted to be by Bloor and Yonge. The venue next door (which is Comrades at time of interview) was a straight bar that Bob believes was named Dominoes. Bob intended to open a club downstairs, with the baths upstairs. Bob met his other lover at a party at 110 Maitland, which he said was an ‘all gay building’ Bob notes that CBC was once a big part of the community, but since things have ‘spread out, things have grown’. He discusses the construction of the City Park apartments, and how it attracted gay men (Bob lived at City Park) as well as the discussion of ‘Vaseline tower’. Bob also discussed militant gay men at Stonewall, fighting the police, throwing bricks, etc. by Christopher St. It sounds as though Bob may have been at Stonewall. Bob worked as a sex worker at age 17 or 18, while visiting New York. There he met an actor at a club who worked for NBC. Bob was staying at a YMCA (The “Sloan House”). The man (who’s name was Art) invited him to parties, and clubs and back to his place. Bob mentions sex in clubs in New York, and a much more liberated atmosphere. Bob felt ‘repulsed’ by Art, but still lived with him at his apartment. He would introduce Bob to men who wanted to sleep with him, and Bob would agree - often much older than him (35 or 40 years old). Bob applied for papers to move to the States and was looking for work. Bob recalls that one morning, after sleeping with one of those men, the man had to leave early in the morning for church as he was a priest. Then, the man said he would not see him again because it was ‘very expensive’. It turned out Bob’s partner (Art) was charging the men money to sleep with Bob, unbeknownst to Bob. Then, Bob began hustling on 42nd and 8th in New York; he says ‘I never really had any trouble’. At time of interview, he mentions there are a lot of drugs in that area. But in those days, he says it was all sex no drugs. Bob was never harassed by straight people, and never felt bothered while hustling in New York. Bob spent 3 or 4 months in New York, living with Arthur. Bob’s parents knew he was in New York at the time, and knew about Arthur (who would pay for Bob’s plane tickets to New York). His parents did not have much response. One night, while Bob was living in City Park, and his father was visiting Toronto for a convention at the King Edward Hotel. Bob ran into him. Bob was heading to Letros with a younger man with bleached hair and ‘man tan’ - a spray tan - and tight clothes at the time. His father was very surprised by this man, and confused about the men Bob associated with. Bob was in New York for more than three summers, while in high school.
Dates and locations discussed: Toronto, New York, 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s
Access Restrictions
N/A
Location - Original
CLGA only in possession of digital copy. Cassette tape retained by Lionel Collier
